Big Green: Loaded inquiry: GSHPs, Solar Thermal and the like

[NEGS]

And here is another classic example of someone standing outside a building, looking in through whatever cracks may be visible in the drawn curtains, and guessing about what is going on inside.

Clearly, you have no experience with GSHPs. 

Yet, you profess to.

Infact, the only statement that makes any sense below, is the one you quoted from Ghandi.

Well, I for one am sick to death of this kind of self proclaimed expertise, from people who have no experience with said industry, yet claim to "know differently" 

You do not know differently.

You only know you haven't been trained in this industry, and that's all you need to know. (in your own mind)

You know that you have not been trained by anyone in this industry, because if you were, the first thing you would know about this industry is that these do indeed tap a renewable energy. Yet, your opening statement clearly defines these as not renewable.

People, this industry has the potential to save our sorry buts from the imminent catastrophy that is pending. Once the polar regions have all been completely melted: it is going to get hotter than hell on Earth. NASA has said it, the UK have said it, and scores upon scores of other companies, corporations, institutes, individuals, scientists, and on and on, have all examined the data (icemelt THIS YEAR is being measured in cubic miles. Ice that is over 600,000 years old is melting right now, and the North Pole has already shrunk to less than half the size it was in 1973) and have no choice to conclude that WE NEED TO TURN DOWN THE HEAT FROM OUR OWN INDUSTRIAL BEHAVIOUR.

GSHPs are the only viable alternative to indoor heating we have as a species that do not produce waste heat, nor GHGs.

Just because Joe Llona is not installing them, and is sticking with the status quo (which is really what is hurting us more than anything) does not mean that you should. And just because Joe Llona won't get off his sorry but and take a training seminar: doesn't mean you shouldn't.

And Joe Llona, we have installed all the other systems you advocate below; and when stood next to a GSHP system: they all have: way lower efficiencies, are way harder to control, have way too many faults, require way too much maintenance, and produce way too much waste heat and GHGs.

It is time for Joe Llona to upgrade his skillset. (20 years ago, Joe, this has gone way beyond a joke)


David Cardill



  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Joe Llona 
  To: John Beeson ; biggreen at lists.biggreen.org 
  Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 1:27 PM
  Subject: RE: Big Green: Loaded inquiry: GSHPs, Solar Thermal and the like


  Hi John,
  1.  GSHP's are not free energy, and they are not renewable geothermal energy as many mistakenly call them.  GSHP's are water-source heat pumps that use the earth as a heat sink.  As such they don't require cooling tower energy or a boiler (in most climates) and the water temperatures provide for significantly higher heating and cooling efficiency.
  2.  You can put a water-water GSHP to create water temperatures very appropriate for radiant heating and cooling slabs.  You need to make sure that you have both a heating and a cooling load on your GSHP loop, though, because the heat you take out of the ground in the winter needs to be put back in in the summer.
  3.  GSHP's don't necessarily integrate a heat recovery ventilator in the system design.  Most applications use a separate outside air ventilator that ducts around 100% outside air to the individual GSHP units.  It's usually a good idea to provide heat recovery to that sub-system.
  4.  GSHP's are generally slightly more maintenance than a conventional VAV system, but probably less than a fan-powered-VAV system.  The biggest things are filter replacement at the units and potential for condensate drainage problems, but a properly designed and installed system can usually avoid much of the latter.
  5.  Doing the heating with solar would be an alternative to consider, but (see comment #2 above) if you did that you'd need to look elsewhere for your cooling source.  I'd be concerned about using city water for a cooling source.  You don't want to be wasting that much water and most water utilities would not like the idea of circulating mechanical cooling water back into their supply.

  Joe Llona, P.E., CSBA, LEED® AP 
  Director of Sustainable Design 
  CDi Engineers 
  Phone (425) 712-2182
  Fax (425) 778-8769 
  E-mail jllona at cdiengineers.com 

  "You must be the change you want to see in the world." - Ghandi
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