Big Green: Loaded inquiry: GSHPs, Solar Thermal and the like

Mon Aug 28 12:52:49 EDT 2006

Please don't get me wrong David.  I am a proponent of GSHP's when
appropriate.  I have in fact taken a "training seminar" in their
application.  I have also helped to design a large successfully
operating GSHP system in the Seattle area.  When looking at system
selections for the many varied projects we design, I am always the first
to make sure that GSHP's get consideration.  But the fact of the matter
is that if you disconnect them from the power grid, they don't work.  If
you can power them from appropriate renewable power sources, great!  But
the heat they extract from the earth is not in fact renewable, as is
evidenced by the fact that you can't use them for heating-only or
cooling-only applications, except in rare instances involving horizontal
water table migration.

David, please don't question my commitment to avoidance of global
warming.  You don't know me.  You don't know that I understand and
passionately promote the fact that the only way we are really going to
make a dent in CO2 emissions is by designing buildings that have minimal
mechanical systems.  You also don't know the fact that I ride my bicycle
over 6,000 miles per year, regardless of weather, and I ride the bus
when bicycling isn't feasible, only driving a car when family
circumstances dictate that I be available to pick up a child and her
musical instrument at school.

Also David, please don't question my "skillset".  You don't know me.
You don't know the fact that I am constantly attending various seminars
on green building technologies and that I present seminars at my
workplace (a mechanical engineering firm of more than 50) and at client
offices as well.  You also don't know the fact that I teach an upper
division mechanical engineering class at a major university in Seattle.
Nor do you know that I have more than 26 years experience designing and
installing mechanical systems for buildiings.  

Joe Llona, P.E., CSBA, LEED(r) AP 
Director of Sustainable Design 
CDi Engineers 
Phone (425) 712-2182

Fax (425) 778-8769 
E-mail jllona at cdiengineers.com 

Being green is not about what you drive, it's about whether you drive.

________________________________

	From: biggreen-bounces at lists.biggreen.org
[mailto:biggreen-bounces at lists.biggreen.org] On Behalf Of NEGS
	Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 7:43 AM
	To: biggreen at lists.biggreen.org
	Subject: Re: Big Green: Loaded inquiry: GSHPs, Solar Thermal and
the like

	And here is another classic example of someone standing outside
a building, looking in through whatever cracks may be visible in the
drawn curtains, and guessing about what is going on inside.

	Clearly, you have no experience with GSHPs. 

	Yet, you profess to.

	Infact, the only statement that makes any sense below, is the
one you quoted from Ghandi.

	Well, I for one am sick to death of this kind of self proclaimed
expertise, from people who have no experience with said industry, yet
claim to "know differently" 

	You do not know differently.

	You only know you haven't been trained in this industry, and
that's all you need to know. (in your own mind)

	You know that you have not been trained by anyone in this
industry, because if you were, the first thing you would know about this
industry is that these do indeed tap a renewable energy. Yet, your
opening statement clearly defines these as not renewable.

	People, this industry has the potential to save our sorry buts
from the imminent catastrophy that is pending. Once the polar regions
have all been completely melted: it is going to get hotter than hell on
Earth. NASA has said it, the UK have said it, and scores upon scores of
other companies, corporations, institutes, individuals, scientists, and
on and on, have all examined the data (icemelt THIS YEAR is being
measured in cubic miles. Ice that is over 600,000 years old is melting
right now, and the North Pole has already shrunk to less than half the
size it was in 1973) and have no choice to conclude that WE NEED TO TURN
DOWN THE HEAT FROM OUR OWN INDUSTRIAL BEHAVIOUR.

	GSHPs are the only viable alternative to indoor heating we have
as a species that do not produce waste heat, nor GHGs.

	Just because Joe Llona is not installing them, and is sticking
with the status quo (which is really what is hurting us more than
anything) does not mean that you should. And just because Joe Llona
won't get off his sorry but and take a training seminar: doesn't mean
you shouldn't.

	And Joe Llona, we have installed all the other systems you
advocate below; and when stood next to a GSHP system: they all have: way
lower efficiencies, are way harder to control, have way too many faults,
require way too much maintenance, and produce way too much waste heat
and GHGs.

	It is time for Joe Llona to upgrade his skillset. (20 years ago,
Joe, this has gone way beyond a joke)

	David Cardill

		----- Original Message ----- 
		From: Joe Llona <mailto:jllona at cdiengineers.com>  
		To: John Beeson <mailto:John.Beeson at smithgroup.com>  ;
biggreen at lists.biggreen.org 
		Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 1:27 PM
		Subject: RE: Big Green: Loaded inquiry: GSHPs, Solar
Thermal and the like

		Hi John,
		1.  GSHP's are not free energy, and they are not
renewable geothermal energy as many mistakenly call them.  GSHP's are
water-source heat pumps that use the earth as a heat sink.  As such they
don't require cooling tower energy or a boiler (in most climates) and
the water temperatures provide for significantly higher heating and
cooling efficiency.
		2.  You can put a water-water GSHP to create water
temperatures very appropriate for radiant heating and cooling slabs.
You need to make sure that you have both a heating and a cooling load on
your GSHP loop, though, because the heat you take out of the ground in
the winter needs to be put back in in the summer.
		3.  GSHP's don't necessarily integrate a heat recovery
ventilator in the system design.  Most applications use a separate
outside air ventilator that ducts around 100% outside air to the
individual GSHP units.  It's usually a good idea to provide heat
recovery to that sub-system.
		4.  GSHP's are generally slightly more maintenance than
a conventional VAV system, but probably less than a fan-powered-VAV
system.  The biggest things are filter replacement at the units and
potential for condensate drainage problems, but a properly designed and
installed system can usually avoid much of the latter.
		5.  Doing the heating with solar would be an alternative
to consider, but (see comment #2 above) if you did that you'd need to
look elsewhere for your cooling source.  I'd be concerned about using
city water for a cooling source.  You don't want to be wasting that much
water and most water utilities would not like the idea of circulating
mechanical cooling water back into their supply.

		Joe Llona, P.E., CSBA, LEED(r) AP 
		Director of Sustainable Design 
		CDi Engineers 
		Phone (425) 712-2182
		Fax (425) 778-8769 
		E-mail jllona at cdiengineers.com 

		"You must be the change you want to see in the world." -
Ghandi

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