Big Green: Insulating Exterior Masonry Chimneys
Richard Keleher
kel at rkeleher.com
Tue Jun 16 04:17:26 UTC 2009
You also have to watch for where the dew point occurs relative to
vulnerable materials.
--
Richard
*R I C H A R D K E L E H E R A R C H I T E C T**
*AIA CSI LEED AP
460 Powder Mill Road, Concord, MA 01742
978-944-2734 kel at rkeleher.com www.rkeleher.com
<http://www.rkeleher.com>
________________________________________________________
biggreen-request at lists.biggreen.org wrote:
> Send BigGreen mailing list submissions to
> biggreen at lists.biggreen.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.biggreen.org/mailman/listinfo/biggreen
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> biggreen-request at lists.biggreen.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> biggreen-owner at lists.biggreen.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of BigGreen digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Insulating Exterior Masonry Chimneys (sagefarm at comcast.net)
> 2. Re: Insulating Exterior Masonry Chimneys (sagefarm at comcast.net)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 13:54:42 +0000 (UTC)
> From: sagefarm at comcast.net
> Subject: Re: Big Green: Insulating Exterior Masonry Chimneys
> To: Martha VanGeem <mvangeem at ctlgroup.com>
> Cc: biggreen at lists.biggreen.org
> Message-ID:
> <1132540263.4352461244987682419.JavaMail.root at sz0142a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Martha:
>
> I'd be interested to hear what you learn.
>
> A warmer chimney might deteriorate less rapidly as there would be less condensation of acidic gases. That is, when starting a fire in a cold chimney, the chimney would initially be cold and below the condensation of any acid gases in the combustion products.
>
> You mention moisture issues, can you elaborate?
>
> David
>
> Life Energy Associates
> www.LifeEnergyAssoc.com
> 20 Darton Street
> Concord, MA 01742
> 978-369-5680
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martha VanGeem" <mvangeem at ctlgroup.com>
> To: sagefarm at comcast.net, "Dean Sherwin" <costman at verizon.net>
> Cc: biggreen at lists.biggreen.org
> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 5:38:28 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: RE: Big Green: Insulating Exterior Masonry Chimneys
>
>
> Insulting a chimney will increase the temperature of the inside of the chimney when there is a fire. This could cause the brick to deteriorate faster. I would need to look into this further, but it is something to consider. A high temperature insulation would need to be used. Also, there may be moisture issues that need to be considered to prevent the brick from spalling.
>
>
>
> Martha G. VanGeem, PE (Illinois), MBA, LEED Accredited Professional
> Principal Engineer & Manager, Building Science and Sustainability
> Direct 847-972-3156
> Cell 847-736-4366
> Fax 847-965-5416
> mvangeem at CTLGroup.com
>
> CTLGroup
> Building Knowledge. Delivering Results.
> 5400 Old Orchard Road
> Skokie, IL 60077-1030
> www.CTLGroup.com
>
>
>
> From: biggreen-bounces at lists.biggreen.org [mailto:biggreen-bounces at lists.biggreen.org] On Behalf Of sagefarm at comcast.net
> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 4:09 PM
> To: Dean Sherwin
> Cc: biggreen at lists.biggreen.org
> Subject: Re: Big Green: Insulating Exterior Masonry Chimneys
>
>
>
> Dean:
>
> Let's look at two situations, when there is no fire in the fireplace, and when there is.
>
> When there is no fire in the fireplace, I contend that the masonry chimney acts like a wick in pulling heat out of the house and loosing it to the cold.outdoors. Insulating the entire chimney would reduce this components of the building's heat loss. This asks the question, does anyone know how much heat is lost out the chimney when its cold out and there is no fire.
>
> When there is a fire, and even after is goes out, the heated up chimney losses this heat to the outdoors at a reduced rate when it is insulated, and so ends up contributing more of its heat to the adjacent occupied spaces.
>
> I therefore suggest that if there is an exterior masonry chimney, and it is a goal to improve the effectiveness of the building's thermal envelope, then insulating the chimney should be considered.
>
> David
>
>
> Life Energy Associates
> www.LifeEnergyAssoc.com
> 20 Darton Street
> Concord, MA 01742
> 978-369-5680
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dean Sherwin" <costman at verizon.net>
> To: sagefarm at comcast.net, biggreen at lists.biggreen.org
> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 4:44:14 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Re: Big Green: Insulating Exterior Masonry Chimneys
>
> David
> Interesting question, but first let me be a doubting Thomas, and ask, how would insulating a chimney improve building efficiency since the heat is all headed out? It's true that keeping flue gases warm all the way up may improve draw somewhat. It's also true that a warm flue makes lighting a fire without it smoking easier; but this is if fires are lit and allowed to go out daily. after a day or so your chimney will have cooled down anyway.
> Typically a main reason for the faster deterioration of pointing etc on brick chimneys is because of the acids that come out of the flue top and are washed back down by rain. So detailing the top of a (traditional brick) chimney is important, and the design of the cowl or chimney pot helps draw out the smoke. For the reason of having less condensation of acids, the insulation could be beneficial. Whatever method you choose, I suggest a good stainless steel cover that covers the top of the insulation system (as well of course the chimney top and is flashed to the cowl) and extends slightly beyond with a drip edge.
>
>
> At 04:18 PM 6/11/2009, sagefarm at comcast.net wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Colleagues:
>
> Does anyone have any experience either recommending, or evaluating, the insulating of exterior masonry chimneys.
>
> In theory, this should make the structure significantly more energy efficient, as well as a lot easier to get a fire started in,
>
> but does anyone have any experience in this area?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> David W. Bearg, PE, CIH
>
> Life Energy Associates
> www.LifeEnergyAssoc.com
> 20 Darton Street
> Concord, MA 01742
> 978-369-5680
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Piepkorn" <mark at buildinggreen.com>
> To: biggreen at lists.biggreen.org
> Sent: Friday, June 5, 2009 5:35:16 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Big Green: Natural (en)Light(en)ing
>
> In response to a recent Environmental Building News feature story
> about the inefficiencies of building-integrated wind turbines comes
> this subtly hilarious examination of the efficiencies of
> building-integrated prayer wheels.
>
> http://www.buildinggreen.com/live/index.cfm/2009/6/4/BuildingIntegrated-Prayer-Wheels
>
> (This post is only off-topic if you don't follow the links back to
> the original article.)
>
>
> Mark
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> This green building dialogue is provided as a public service
> by Drew George, along with Environmental Building News
> http://www.buildinggreen.com . For instructions see http://www.biggreen.org/discussion.html
> _______________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________
> This green building dialogue is provided as a public service
> by Drew George, along with Environmental Building News
> http://www.buildinggreen.com . For instructions see http://www.biggreen.org/discussion.html
> _______________________________________________________________
>
>
> Dean Sherwin CPE
> Certified Professional Estimator
> LEED Accredited Professional
> CONSTRUCTION COST MANAGEMENT
> 3, Cherry Street
> PO Box 11
> Media, PA 19063-0011
> (610)892 8860
> fax (610) 892 7862
> costman at verizon.net
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: http://lists.biggreen.org/pipermail/biggreen/attachments/20090614/38583573/attachment.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:00:56 +0000 (UTC)
> From: sagefarm at comcast.net
> Subject: Re: Big Green: Insulating Exterior Masonry Chimneys
> To: Barrie Moore <merlon at gn.apc.org>
> Cc: biggreen at lists.biggreen.org
> Message-ID:
> <938885222.4354311244988056163.JavaMail.root at sz0142a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Barrie:
>
> Just to explain this situation better.
>
> I have a client with an existing exterior masonry chimney and a source of firewood.
>
> They are considering adding a chimney insert appliance to replace having a fire in the open fireplace.
>
> In addition to this, I am asking them to consider insulating the exterior masonry chimney for a number of reasons.
>
> In terms of global warming, a goal might be to use only current sunshine for warmth, but I consider wood to be from recent sunshine and therefore preferable to using sunshine from millions of years ago as found in fossil fuels.
>
> David
>
> Life Energy Associates
> www.LifeEnergyAssoc.com
> 20 Darton Street
> Concord, MA 01742
> 978-369-5680
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barrie Moore" <merlon at gn.apc.org>
> To: biggreen at lists.biggreen.org
> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 8:36:32 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Re: Big Green: Insulating Exterior Masonry Chimneys
>
> Re: Big Green: Insulating Exterior Masonry Chimneys
> The best way to stop a chimney leaking energy is not to have one. Chimneys and burning are for backwoodsmen and have no place in cities where the majority of us now live. Has anybody heard of global warming ? To insulate one you need to keep all the kiloWatts from getting out before they have transferred themselves into the thermal mass of the construction. This is not easy if you have a fire underneath. All that thermal mass is brilliant and you only need to insulate the bit that pokes above the roof insulation. That is unless you've parked your chimney on an outside wall specifically to heat the air outside. You then need to stop the convection air form getting out (not easy if you have a fire underneath) and include a radiant barrier at the top.
>
>
>
> Hi David,
>
>
>
>
> Just a suggestion on getting good input:
>
>
>
>
> This would be a GREAT question to post in the forums at GreenBuildingAdvisor.com. You'd like get a quick response from editor (and energy expert) Martin Holladay, and attention from several of the high profile Advisors.
>
>
>
>
> Nadav
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 11, 2009, at 5:08 PM, sagefarm at comcast.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Dean:
>
> Let's look at two situations, when there is no fire in the fireplace, and when there is.
>
> When there is no fire in the fireplace, I contend that the masonry chimney acts like a wick in pulling heat out of the house and loosing it to the cold.outdoors. Insulating the entire chimney would reduce this components of the building's heat loss. This asks the question, does anyone know how much heat is lost out the chimney when its cold out and there is no fire.
>
> When there is a fire, and even after is goes out, the heated up chimney losses this heat to the outdoors at a reduced rate when it is insulated, and so ends up contributing more of its heat to the adjacent occupied spaces.
>
> I therefore suggest that if there is an exterior masonry chimney, and it is a goal to improve the effectiveness of the building's thermal envelope, then insulating the chimney should be considered.
>
> David
>
>
> Life Energy Associates
> www.LifeEnergyAssoc.com
> 20 Darton Street
> Concord, MA 01742
> 978-369-5680
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dean Sherwin" < costman at verizon.net >
> To: sagefarm at comcast.net , biggreen at lists.biggreen.org
> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 4:44:14 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Re: Big Green: Insulating Exterior Masonry Chimneys
>
> David
> Interesting question, but first let me be a doubting Thomas, and ask, how would insulating a chimney improve building efficiency since the heat is all headed out? It's true that keeping flue gases warm all the way up may improve draw somewhat. It's also true that a warm flue makes lighting a fire without it smoking easier; but this is if fires are lit and allowed to go out daily. after a day or so your chimney will have cooled down anyway.
> Typically a main reason for the faster deterioration of pointing etc on brick chimneys is because of the acids that come out of the flue top and are washed back down by rain. So detailing the top of a (traditional brick) chimney is important, and the design of the cowl or chimney pot helps draw out the smoke. For the reason of having less condensation of acids, the insulation could be beneficial. Whatever method you choose, I suggest a good stainless steel cover that covers the top of the insulation system (as well of course the chimney top and is flashed to the cowl) and extends slightly beyond with a drip edge.
>
>
> At 04:18 PM 6/11/2009, sagefarm at comcast.net wrote:
>
>
> Dear Colleagues:
>
> Does anyone have any experience either recommending, or evaluating, the insulating of exterior masonry chimneys.
>
> In theory, this should make the structure significantly more energy efficient, as well as a lot easier to get a fire started in,
>
>
> but does anyone have any experience in this area?
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> David W. Bearg, PE, CIH
>
> Life Energy Associates
> www.LifeEnergyAssoc.com
> 20 Darton Street
> Concord, MA 01742
> 978-369-5680
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Piepkorn" < mark at buildinggreen.com >
> To: biggreen at lists.biggreen.org
> Sent: Friday, June 5, 2009 5:35:16 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Big Green: Natural (en)Light(en)ing
>
> In response to a recent Environmental Building News feature story
> about the inefficiencies of building-integrated wind turbines comes
> this subtly hilarious examination of the efficiencies of
> building-integrated prayer wheels.
>
> http://www.buildinggreen.com/live/index.cfm/2009/6/4/BuildingIntegra ted-Prayer-Wheels
>
> (This post is only off-topic if you don't follow the links back to
> the original article.)
>
>
> Mark
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> This green building dialogue is provided as a public service
> by Drew George, along with Environmental Building News
> http://www.buildinggreen.com . For instructions see http://www.biggreen.org/discussion.html
> _______________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________
> This green building dialogue is provided as a public service
> by Drew George, along with Environmental Building News
> http://www.buildinggreen.com . For instructions see http://www.biggreen.org/discussion.html
> _______________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
> Dean Sherwin CPE
> Certified Professional Estimator
> LEED Accredited Professional
> CONSTRUCTION COST MANAGEMENT
> 3, Cherry Street
> PO Box 11
> Media, PA 19063-0011
> (610)892 8860
> fax (610) 892 7862
> costman at verizon.net
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> This green building dialogue is provided as a public service
> by Drew George, along with Environmental Building News
> http://www.buildinggreen.com . For instructions see http://www.biggreen.org/discussion.html
> _______________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> This green building dialogue is provided as a public service
> by Drew George, along with Environmental Building News
> http://www.buildinggreen.com. For instructions see http://www.biggreen.org/discussion.html
> _______________________________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________ This green building dialogue is provided as a public service by Drew George, along with Environmental Building News http://www.buildinggreen.com. For instructions see http://www.biggreen.org/discussion.html _______________________________________________________________
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: http://lists.biggreen.org/pipermail/biggreen/attachments/20090614/72b59792/attachment-0001.htm
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> This green building dialogue is provided as a public service
> by Drew George, along with Environmental Building News
> http://www.buildinggreen.com
> For instructions see http://www.biggreen.org/discussion.html
> _______________________________________________________________
>
> End of BigGreen Digest, Vol 44, Issue 4
> ***************************************
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.biggreen.org/pipermail/biggreen/attachments/20090616/a82c2df5/attachment-0001.htm
More information about the BigGreen
mailing list